May 1st, 1993 – Rachel, Nevada
The transcript which follows is nearly verbatim. However, exact transcripts, filled with awkward phrasing, along with “I mean’s” and “you know’s”, are difficult to read. Therefore, some of the phrasing is changed and some extraneous words are deleted. Where non trivial paraphrasing was done, or where words were added to clarify statements, those changes and additions are enclosed in brackets. Editorial comments are enclosed in brackets with “Ed. note” added. “Q” refers to questioner (there were about ten people present). “BL” refers to Bob Lazar. To protect the privacy of certain individuals, some full proper names have been deleted.
Q: You mentioned that you didn’t like the way work was being conducted at S-4. What did you mean? BL: What I meant was that it was being conducted by unqualified people. They were looking at duplicating the hardware and not trying to back engineer the theory. I contend that there was certainly no reason to pick me to work on the project except that I would come at the problem from a different angle. That was my main complaint. The second complaint was that there was definitely a lack of equipment there, and in any kind of project along those lines, that high level of security does not go well with scientific research. You couldn’t get things out of rooms. You had to be escorted all the time. I’m at a loss for words. A scientific environment just can’t be like that. Q: Where is S-4 relative to Papoose Lake? Is it at the base of Papoose mountain? BL: Yes. If you’re on the lake, it’s just west of Papoose Lake. You can look out of the bay doors at S-4 and see the lake out there. Q: What was the ratio of security people to scientists out there? BL: (Laughs) A million to one. Q: Why? BL: I have no idea. You’re talking about 22 people [unintelligible phrase]. You’re secure in the test site already, and it’s not like there’s going to be an invasion team coming over the hill. I have no idea what the level of security was for. It’s possible that security during my time was increased because around the time I got there, I know that the Russians were involved in what we were doing. Q: Why was that? BL: I don’t know. All I know is that some large discovery was made. Exactly what that was, I don’t know. I think security was more concerned about the Russians, maybe there was a fear that the Russians would latch onto one of the U.S. scientists. Q: What time were the Soviets kicked out? BL: Right after I got there, around the first of ’89. Q: Did you ever personally work with any Soviets? BL: No, I never did see them, I just heard that they were there. Q: I was wondering, do you have formulas written down concerning element 115 as to how it emits the gravity waves? BL: Just stuff that we scribbled down. Q: Can it be reduced to formulas? BL: I’m sure everything can. You know you need to play around with it some more. Q: Did you live on the base? BL: No. But I know that people do. Q: So they moved you to and from Vegas each day? BL: Yeah. Q: Who runs security? Do they have a parent organization? Wackenhut? BL: No, don’t think it was Wackenhut. I don’t know who they were but I never paid attention to it there. Q: Did they have names on their uniforms? BL: No. Q: How would you describe their uniforms? BL: Some guys just had straight dark blue on. Other guys that were outside had that desert camouflage, you know that beige-colored stuff on. But for the most part, they had dark blue uniforms on. Q: There were people who confirmed your information to George Knapp. Do you know who they are? BL: Yeah. He knows one of the guys in blue. So I think George knows what organization they’re a part of. Q: Did they give George their names? Did he talk to you to confirm that they were associated with S-4? BL: Well, one person related information to George, and so George asked the person to describe stuff that I haven’t told other people, for example, where various things were located in the complex, and everything the person said was right, so there’s no doubt that he was there. Q: Did you have friends you worked with that you also socialized with? BL: No. [unintelligible] I was becoming friends with one guy I worked with but . . . Q: Do you speak now to anybody from that time period? BL: No, but I wish I could. Q: In your tape, you talked about possible alien influence in history. You said you read some things about that in your initial briefing at S-4, but you did not go into the details in your video tape. Can you share anything more about that? BL: All I know is really what I said in the tape: that there were 65 or 66 corrections [Ed note: referring to past alien genetic corrections of the human race, I believe] but you know, I can only put so much credit in that stuff. Q: You said that there were actual video tapes that existed of historical events, apparently made by aliens. I think you mentioned that in your video tape. Were those alien tapes seen by you or were they just indicated in the briefing? BL: No, it was indicated. Q: Before the theory was pieced together as to how these craft work, (the propulsion system, that is) what were the previous theories? Were they pursuing any other methods to accomplish the same type of travel? BL: Well, they always knew it was some sort of field propulsion just because there were no high pressure areas, propellers, or nothing along those lines coming out of the craft, so they knew it was some soft of field propulsion, maybe electromagnetic. Essentially, they couldn’t measure anything coming off the craft except by-products of the electromagnetic energy from the reactor. I think they’re only pursuing gravitational propulsion. Q: I read in a book somewhere that there was an inventor, I guess in the 40’s or 50’s, named Townsend Brown. From what I remember, he took an electromagnet, and when you first turn an electromagnet on, it moves. And he said that he could harness that energy to create flying crafts or what ever. Is stuff like that feasible? BL: No. I’ve seen all kinds of crazy claims about how they [the craft] operate …and I mean most of them are ridiculous. Q: Bob, other than the propulsion technology, which is obviously the most amazing of the whole picture, was there any other technology that you saw that would be as amazing to us, maybe their communication technology? BL: I don’t know. Like I said, I was only privy to information about propulsion, but the communications really concerns me. It bothers me because it doesn’t make sense. If you’re dealing with an intense gravitational field that distorts everything around the craft radio waves would not be able to penetrate [the field to reach] the craft: they should be distorted just like light is around the craft. Yet, the ground controllers at S-4 were in contact with the craft during test flights. There’s things that I want to know about it, and one of them is the communications. One possibility is that it is some sort of modulated gravity communication which would be unbelievable. Q: What did you know about Project Looking Glass? BL: Very, very little. Q: Is that project being run out of S-4 as well or is that at another location? BL: No. All that’s at S-4. Q: When you were threatened before going to Japan for an interview, why do you think that they haven’t mad e threats like that while you were here in this country? BL: What do you mean? Why don’t they threaten me now? I don’t know. A lot of time has gone by. I can’t even guess. You know, maybe that was before much word got around, and they were more concerned about it back then. Q: Have you had any network exposure, I mean with major networks like ABC or CBS? BL: Some of the trash stuff, like “Current Affair”, have picked up on the story. Q: There were no serious attempts to get your story? BL: Oh, yeah, there was CNN and a bunch of other places that did run something. Yeah, there was quite a bit. Q: Anything from scientific groups? BL: Not that’s published and that’s ongoing now. Q: Why do you think it’s taking so long for main stream science to – BL: Oh, they hate stuff like this not UFOs, but they hate it if you come up with another theory that essentially disproves everything else. You can’t believe the jealousy in that field. They’ll spend the rest of their careers just trying to [academically] assassinate you and ruin your credibility. Q: Ego? BL: Oh, absolutely. Especially if you’re a young guy and haven’t been involved in their work. I mean they might have worked their whole lives in the thing and they can’t . . . Q: Your co-workers at S-4, did you detect an arrogance or ego on their part? BL: No. Not at all. They really feel privileged. as I did when I was there, to be involved with it. And we kind of pushed off everyone else. The feeling was something like, “you’re right, this should be secret, to hell with everyone else.” [laughs] I would agree with that, that’s what I would do. Yeah, believe me, when you’re involved with it, you feel like, “hey we’re it!” That’s really the attitude I had when I was there. Q: You made the statement that there is some information which you choose not to reveal. I imagine that’s because of national security. BL: Oh, there’s information about weapons and things like that [unintelligible] Q: So didn’t you feel like you were breaking some kind of an honor code by – BL: Well, not just honor but legally [unintelligible] but – Q: Why weren’t you imprisoned? BL: Well, what are they going to bring me up on? For them to do that, they would have to say that this is secret information. Q: Does it concern you that nobody else has come out publicly? [Ed note: at the Triad UFO conference in July 1993 in Seattle, George Knapp, the TV reporter who has been following this, said that he has had several sources separately confirm elements of Lazar’s story. BL: Well, yeah, publicly it bothered me, but you know, privately, people have. Q: Did you ever speak among your co-workers and say, “God, this is so incredible…” BL: Yeah, to another guy [name deleted] That’s why I’m really anxious to find him…because he seemed like, with coaxing at that time, he would have said something. Q: Do you know of any other place where this kind of work is going on? BL: I was told when I was there that S-4 was the only place. You know there were stories of Hangar 18 and other Air Force bases that…purposely everything is kept at one location. Q: Did you ever get the feeling that maybe if you had stayed in this just a little longer, you’d have more to tell? Why didn’t you go that route? BL: Oh, well, there’s a big long story why I left [Ed note: Later in the conference, Lazar told the story in which he, John Lear and others were caught near S-4 watching a test of one of the crafts of the type Lazar was allegedly working on. This and BL. related circumstances caused Lazar to leave the program.] Q: I know they kind of threatened you because of meetings with John Lear. BL: Yeah, but there’s a big chain of events that happened, I mean they – Q: Bob, there’s a lot of speculation as to why, right after you started, you spoke to John. Did you feel morally obligated to come out and tell the story so the rest of us would know? BL: I haven’t the slightest idea why I told John. I really didn’t know him that well then. Later, I found out that the things they [people at S-4] told me about John were essentially a lie. And John has spent a couple of years trying to track this [the S 4 story] down. And, because at the time I had the flight schedules, really all I did was say “at 9 o’clock this day, there’s going to be a flight, you want to see something?” And we went out there and watched, and after that I said, “that’s it, let’s drop it.” Q: Did John ever express any doubt about your work or the things you were telling him? BL: Well, there wasn’t much time from when I told him about the flight to when we went out to watch it. He brought out his Celestron telescope, and when we got out there, he whipped this big telescope out, and I said, “oh, my God, okay, John, that’s it!” Q: Did you at any time think you wanted to go to the regular media with this? BL: No. Obviously not. Q: Would you go to White Sides anytime, say, in a couple of hours maybe? BL: White Sides? What’s that? Q: The mountain, White Sides, from where you can see Groom Lake. BL: But nothing’s at Groom Lake Area 51. [Ed note: remember Bob claims alien craft are tested at S-4 not Area 51.] Q: Where would you go if you wanted to view what’s going on at S-4? BL: People often go to the Mailbox Road [intersection of Mailbox Road and Highway 375] but you really can’t see [any S-4 activity] from Mailbox Road, you want the road further up [a few miles south], the other long line on the map, Groom Road. That’s where we viewed it from. We went all the way up and to the left [on Groom road] so we could get closer to S-4. My friend works for Central LA regional telephone company, and he says that if you go over by Mount Charleston, I can’t remember exactly where right now, you can see right down on [unintelligible] and you can actually see the vehicles moving from that area. Q: From Mount Charleston? That’s a hundred miles away, though. BL: But he said he goes up there all the time and other Central people do; they can see the vehicles moving. BL: [Went on to the next question.] Q: When you were working there, were there any connections with any projects in Australia? BL: None that I heard of. I know that there are connections in the Soviet Union, but nothing in Australia. Q: Bob, some people that have been hanging around the Mailbox, people that George Knapp used to corroborate your story, said that they saw a saucer shaped object hovering around the Mailbox actually, it was about a hundred yards away. Would that be something totally different from something going on at S-4, non-exotic technology? BL: Well, you know, down at Groom, they’re working on all types of secret aircraft. Q: So you think that craft was terrestrial technology? < strong>BL: I don’t know, that depends on what they saw. If it’s hovering silently, and it’s a large…it’s hard to say until you actually see it. I’m not privy to all the information, but I really don’t know of any kind of vertical take-off and landing craft being worked on right now at Area 51, though there may be. Q: Did they ever indicate that the technology that you were working on was associated with Roswell or previous crashes or anything like that?
Q: Bob, would you characterize your work at S-4 as being the most exciting thing you’ve ever worked on?
BL: [smiles] Oh, of course, yeah. Without a doubt.
Q: Do you think they’ll be able to replicate a vehicle sometime in the future?
BL: Some of the technology, yeah, but not the propulsion. Because you’d need the reactor and the reactor is a technology that doesn’t even exist yet [unintelligible]. You could certainly make a weapon out of the fuel, though. That would be very easy to do.
Q: John [Lear] said that you were the source of some information about the fact that the Grays were a mercenary force that was interfering.
Q: You said it’s very difficult to get this propulsion system going. Are the things that are flying strictly reactors built by alien technology? No terrestrial technology?
BL: No, absolutely. Nothing. One of the things we were trying to do was, starting with alien operating reactors and operating amplifiers, we tried to substitute different pieces of man-made material in various parts of the system. The only thing we got to work was essentially substituting a wave guide, and of course that’s essentially a pipe. But when we made any changes to the gravity amplifiers they stopped working after that. You know, everyone was really afraid to fool around with the reactor too much.
Q: You said in your video tape that they [technicians trying to figure out how the reactor worked] were playing with the reactor and there was an explosion. [Ed note: Lazar said in his video tape that this explosion happened in May of 1987.]
BL: Yes, supposedly the history of what happened before me was that –
Q: Why were they cutting it open? What were they trying to achieve?
BL: I read the notes from the guys and, believe me, cutting open an operating reactor under load is the last thing I would do. I think they reached a point of frustration and were probably pressured, for example, “you guys gotta come up with something.” And I think they cut into what they thought was the most innocuous or safest part of the reactor, and why they chose to do it when it was operating, I have no idea.
Q: Why were they killed? Why were they co-located with the device or even the vicinity? Wouldn’t you do this remotely?
BL: They were doing it remotely. If you’ve ever seen any of the [blast] rooms they have there [where nuclear weapons are tested underground], they have an area where the device goes, and removed back, there are blast doors where there’s recording equipment. And you know, usually you can get the recording equipment after the detonation. Well [laughs] those two [blast] doors apparently weren’t together and that room was destroyed.
Q: Bob, you left there in what, ’89, four years ago?
BL: Something like that.
Q: Do you think they’ve evolved to the point in their back-engineering work that they’re flying the craft a little bit more? How fast were they evolving?
BL: Extremely slow. Extremely slow.
Q: Before they would fly these craft around the world or take them out in the solar system or something like that, do you think?
BL: They’ve never left the atmosphere with the craft. Positively not.
Q: [Do you know if it] will take 10 years, 20 years to do that?
BL: I don’t know if they’ll do that. They are so paranoid when the thing lifts off the ground and over to the right [laughs], people are sitting there praying that it comes back, and they never –
Q: It’s an extremely complicated thing to pilot?
BL: I don’t know. I have no idea how to navigate the thing. If someone threw me in the middle of it, I wouldn’t have the slightest idea how to get it off the ground.
Q: You mentioned when you went inside the sport model [Bob’s nickname for the particular craft he worked on] it had really short chairs. Do you think they accommodated these to fit human pilots for the [tests]?
BL: They must have.
Q: Do you regret now having gone public?
BL: In some ways, yeah, but for the most part no.
Q: Were you glad you did it?
BL: Well it was more or less for selfish reasons because I [two words unintelligible] that’s essentially what it was. Was I concerned that the world knew? No. [laughs]
Q: How do you feel about coming out here to this conference today?
BL: Coming out here today? I have no problem with it. Enough time has gone by. They say time heals all wounds. So –
Q: Do you feel like you’ve done the right thing?
BL: Ah [pauses], yeah. Yeah I do. I really wish I had stayed with the project longer, though, because I really do want to know more about the technology.
Q: Were you ever briefed or made aware of any other propulsion system other than the one you worked on?
BL: [No verbal answer, but I assume he was shaking his head no.]
Q: Bob, usually when they have people like yourself working on something like propulsion, it [the secret information] is very highly compartmentalized. They don’t talk about anything else [except what you need to know] but you said that when you first got there, they showed you briefing papers about various topics. Why do you think they did that?
BL: Yeah, virtually everything [is compartmentalized]. I imagine that was just to relieve any possible questions. But remember, when I talk about briefings, I’m talking about two sheets of paper, just like “this is what’s going on with the rest of the craft, this is what you’re working on.” And then the bulk of the information percent – dealt specifically with what I was going to be working on. So, anyway, it was to alleviate any questions of “Well, where did this come from?”
Q: You said you had 38 levels [of security clearance] above “Q.” [Ed note: “Q” is itself a high level clearance]
BL: Yeah, that’s what I was told.
Q: How many levels are there?
BL: I don’t know.
Q: Have you ever heard of higher levels?
BL: It never came up.
Q: Did you ever hear rumors of major government officials coming in to get tours, like congressman or whatever?
BL: I heard rumors of that, but you know from what I was told when I was there, no one has ever stepped in there from any faction of the government, Navy or whatever. People get tours of [Area] 51 all the time, but I’ve never heard of anyone coming up through there [S-4].
Q: Have you talked to any astronauts? Anybody who’s walked on the moon?
Q: And corresponded with them?
BL: Well, they’ve come out to visit me.
Q: They approached you? They initiated contact with you?
BL: [Non-verbal answer but from the flow of the following questions, I assume Lazar nodded yes.]
Q: Like [astronaut’s name deleted] or somebody like that?
BL: No, not [astronaut’s name]. [Ed Note: the questioners proposed some additional names to which Lazar did not respond.] You can’t say who? One of them was [name deleted]. He was the [number deleted] man on the moon.
Q: What did he have to say to you?
BL: Well, there’s a faction of those guys that are…they’re into it, but I guess it’s dangerous. Well not really “dangerous” [but difficult] for them to express interest, but you know, these guys are on pensions for the rest of their lives and . . .
Q: What did they say to you? Right on?
BL: Yeah, that was essentially what they said to me.
Q: Bob, if you could return to work on the project, would you go?
Q: You would not go?
BL: No. Just because I don’t trust them. If I could go with a little army [to protect me], I’d be…you know, no problem. If they’d give me stuff to do at home…[laughs] But no, I don’t want to go back to a secure area in the middle of the desert. In other words, go back completely on their turf? Yeah. Not a chance.
Q: How do you feel about being such a celebrity in this area? Is it a nuisance to you?
BL: No, it’s not [a nuisance]. I just don’t [unintelligible reference to being low-key].
Q: What kind of work do you feel could get you excited again right now?
BL: Ah, weapons.
Q: Weapons? Because of the financial rewards?
BL: No, I like [laughs] really destructive things. [Laughter in group]
Q: That’s a surprising comment!
BL: Well, you know, actually, I would have rather worked on Project Sidekick which dealt with them.
Really. It would have been more along my lines I don’t know what I was doing [assigned to propulsion].
Q: Do you think you’ll ever get an opportunity to work in the field you want to again?
BL: Not at that level, no. But in other weapons development, I do [one word unintelligible]. You can imagine what a burst of gravity waves would do to something solid. It could be used for a lot of things.
Q: What is your background, Bob? You have a master’s and bachelor’s [degrees] is that right?
BL: Physics and Electronics Technology. At MIT and Cal Tech.
Q: If you had a craft with a gravity propulsion device aboard, and you were to intensify the gravity field around the craft, could it cause light to bend around it such that the craft would be cloaked from view?
BL: Yeah. It does [cloak a craft from view]. It depends where you are viewing it from. If you’re directly under the craft, you see the sky above it. And if there’s a mountain in back of it? I don’t know how it…without actually observing it like that. I don’t know what you’d see from the side or [how light waves] would travel along the side of the craft.
Q: It seems like they could operate in daytime perhaps with impunity in this way.
BL: Oh, yeah. From certain directions, I would think so.
Q: Do you think the crafts can operate invisibly, or is there always going to be some light accompanying them?
BL: No matter what, at night there’s going to be a light accompanying [it]. You’re dealing with a fluorescent tube essentially of a rare gas in the atmosphere and a tremendous amount of energy being generated. So the atoms in the air are essentially emitting photons.
Q: It’s like a neon effect?
BL: Yeah, that’s exactly what’s happening. It doesn’t happen in space because there is no rarified gas to illuminate. And at different levels of power you get different colors of glow. But for the most part, it should be blue: you may get a sodium yellow-or orange type color.
Q: [Somewhat difficult to hear exactly.] As you get different power levels –
BL: Yeah, it will get brighter as it [the power level] goes up. [unintelligible phrase] The gravity field should distort that light too, but it doesn’t, so… [laughs]…there’s a lot that doesn’t make [sense].
Q: That would probably be the argon in the atmosphere that would turn blue?
BL: No, not the argon, the nitrogen would be bluish white [word unintelligible] like lightning. Argon will glow blue, too, but there’s just trace amounts in the atmosphere.
Q: Did you notice the passage of time being any different inside the craft as opposed to outside?
BL: We didn’t have watches. Watches, wallets and all that stuff were left at [unintelligible].
Q: When you got to observe the craft take off, did they give you instructions about things to look for?
BL: No. It was already taking off when I went out there. Dennis who was my…I think he was my supervisor…came through and said.” there’s a test in progress. Come on out here.”
BL: I guess we should get out of here so people can get to the bar.
Q: Thanks, Bob.