December 9th, 1989
Knapp: Hello, and welcome to On the Record. One month ago, we began a series of reports about UFOs. With the exception of a few cranky newspaper people, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. We’ve had requests for more information from all over the country and from all over the world. Tonight we’re going to delve a little deeper into the subject with the man who was the impetus for our report in the first place, Bob Lazar. Bob, good to have you here. A thumbnail sketch of ,yourself for those who might not be familiar with your background.
Lazar: I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.
Knapp: As a physicist ?
Lazar: As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicistat Area S-4, for what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.
Knapp: Where is S-4 ?
Lazar: It’s about 10 to 15 miles south of Groom Lake, about 125 miles north of Las Vegas.
Knapp: How did you get the job ?
Lazar: I really don’t want to mention the guy who I got it through. But I was referred to a person at EG&G to drop off my resume to; that’s where I was interviewed; though the job is COMPLETELY unrelated to EG&G.
Knapp: What did they tell you you were going to be doing ? Or DID they tell you ?
Lazar: No, they really didn’t tell me until the very end. They said a high-technology job, something that I’d be very interested in.
Knapp: Okay, so you get hired. And what happens ? Do you fly up there ?
Lazar: Fly up there. First day was reading briefings and that sort of thing. And it became evident to me pretty quickly the level of technology they were dealing with: gravitational propulsion and things that science has really only barely touched on.
Knapp: We’ll get into the things that you saw in a couple of minutes. But it’s been about a little more than three weeks since your identity was made public. We had you on another program a couple of months ago — using an assumed name and having you in silhouette — but since your identity has been made public and since this information has been made public, what’s it been like ? What’s been the response from people that see you on the street ?
Lazar: The response has been almost all favorable. In fact, everyone that I’ve run into has been very supportive, very interested. I guess there’s just two or three letters.
Knapp: — from people that don’t believe you ?
Lazar: Yeah. Essentially.
Knapp: Responses from other media outlets as well ?
Knapp: They want to interview you ? What do they want ?
Lazar: Essentially everything, yes. Radio interviews, TV interviews. A lot of people want to dig back into my background and re-trace everything.
Knapp: Many of the people who have been calling — calling us as well — were under the impression that either you’ve gone underground or you’ve been silenced or we’ve been silenced by dark and sinister forces. Anything like that happen to you so far ?
Lazar: That’s ridiculous. People are always going over the deep end on that. And no one’s told me — other than originally — not to say anything. And I’m sure no one’s come forward to you.
Knapp: But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.
Lazar: Oh yeah ! It’s the most secret program in the United States.
Knapp: In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut ?
Lazar: Everything up to death threats. I mean CONSTANT reminders of it, signing away my constitutional rights for fair trial and that sort of thing.
Knapp: And since this thing, your phone’s been tapped, you believe ?
Lazar: Yeah, I believe. I have a tap detector, and occasionally after I pick up the phone, a little red light goes on.
Knapp: The reason you came forward with the information to begin with ? Is it related to the fact that they were bothering you ?
Lazar: Yeah, it was essentially to stop that. What had happened was, I sent in a request for my birth certificate, and as it turned out it wasn’t there anymore, that I wasn’t born at the hospital ! And that kind of got me wondering what’s going on. I put in a request for some other information, previous jobs, and that was also gone, and I thought something had to be done before I disappeared.
Knapp: The same thing — it was Los Alamos ? They’ve never heard of you ?
Knapp: Anything happened since the reports have aired ?
Lazar: They let me know that they were around by doing stupid, childish little things. But nothing serious, no.
Knapp: You were worried about your LIFE though for a while there, weren’t you ?
Lazar: That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out on the air; it’s a little of insurance.
Knapp: Are you worried any more ? Do you get the feeling you’re over the hump ?
Lazar: To some degree, yeah.
Knapp: Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just want more information ?
Lazar: I think a lot of people believe what I said, but the majority I think do just want more information, too. It’s an in-depth subject.
Knapp: Let’s look at some of the technology you saw. When did you first get the idea, what’s the first thing you saw that made you convinced that it’s not from here ?
Lazar: The first thing was HANDS-on experience with the anti-matter reactor.
Knapp: Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.
Lazar: It’s a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.
Knapp: We have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made. You can narrate along. There it is.
Lazar: Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they just put in there. That’s a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top. And as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don’t know, you know, [such as] what’s inside the bottom of it . . . 115 sets up a gravitational field around the top. That little wave guide you saw being put on the top: it essentially siphons off the gravity wave, and that’s later amplified in the lower portion of the craft. But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.
Knapp: Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.
Knapp: Working parts ?
Lazar: None detectable. Essentially, what the job was was to back-engineer everything, where you have a finished product and to step backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made with earthly materials. There hasn’t been very much progress.
Knapp: How long do you think they’ve had this technology up there ?
Lazar: It seems like quite a while, but I really don’t know.
Knapp: What could you do with an anti-matter generator ? What does it do ?
Lazar: It converts anti-matter . . . It DOESN’T convert anti-matter ! There’s an annihilation reaction. It’s an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission or fusion reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent conversion of matter to energy.
Knapp: How does it work ? What starts the reaction going ?
Lazar: Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.
Knapp: I don’t understand. I mean, there’s no button to push or anything ?
Lazar: No, there’s no button to push or anything. Apparently, the 115 under bombardment with protons lets out an anti-matter particle. This anti-matter particle will react with any matter whatsoever, which I imagine there is some target system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat, and somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent-efficient thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical generator.
Knapp: How is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity generation that you were talking about earlier ?
Lazar: Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a tremendous amount of electrical power, which is almost a by-product. The gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that’s through some action of the 115, and the exact action I don’t think anyone really knows.
The wave guide siphons off that gravity wave, and that’s channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there are three gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that gravity wave.
Knapp: In essence creating their own gravitational field.
Lazar: Their own gravitational field.
Knapp: You’re fairly convinced that science on earth doesn’t have this technology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess, but we didn’t create it ?
Knapp: Why not ? Why couldn’t we ?
Lazar: The technology’s not even — We don’t even know what gravity IS !
Knapp: Well, what is it ? What have you learned about what gravity is ?
Lazar: Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories, wave included. It’s been theorized that gravity is also particles, gravitons, which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The basic wave they can actually tap off of an element: why that is I’m not exactly sure.
Knapp: So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean ? What does that allow you to do ?
Lazar: It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time and space. By doing that, now you’re into a different mode of travel, where instead of traveling in a linear method — going from Point A to B — now you can distort time and space to where you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammed; you almost bring your destination to you without moving.
And since you’re distorting time, all this takes place in between moments of time. It’s such a far-fetched concept !
Knapp: Of course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there’s life out there elsewhere in the universe; it can never come here; it’s just too darn far. With the kind of technology you’re talking about, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and time and things like that.
Lazar: Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there’s no longer a normal reference of time. And that’s what producing your own gravity does.
Knapp: You can go forward or backward in time ? Is that’s what you’re saying ?
Lazar: No, not essentially. It would be easier with a model. On the bottom side of the disk are the three gravity generators. When they want to travel to a distant point, the disk turns on its side. The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam. What they do is they converge the three gravity generators onto a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up to power and PULL that point towards the disk. The disk itself will attach ONTO that point and snap back — AS THEY RELEASE SPACE BACK TO THAT POINT! Now all this happens in the distortion of time, so time is not incrementing. So the SPEED is essentially infinite.
Knapp: We’ll get into the disks in a moment. But the first time you saw the anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration — you had a couple of demonstrations — tell me about that.
Lazar: The first time I saw it in operation, we just put — a friend I worked with, Barry — put the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on as, as was shown there.Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said, “Feel it!” And it felt like you bring two like poles of a magnet together; you can do that with your hand. And it was FASCINATING to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass! And obviously this is just a . . . And it was a REPULSION field. In fact, we kind of fooled around with it for a little while. And we threw golf balls off it. And it was just a really unique thing.
Knapp: And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is pretty wild stuff, right ?
Lazar: Yeah, they did. They were able to channel the field off in a demonstration that they created an INTENSE gravitational area. And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was the bending of the light.
Knapp: Just like a black hole floating around ?
Lazar: Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.
Knapp: And they gave you some kind of demonstration about time, involving a candle ? Explain how that works.
Lazar: Yeah, they took a candle and lit it and put it in the distorted gravitational field, which distorts time, and the candle just stood there. It didn’t melt or burn. It was REALLY unbelievable !
Knapp: You had to be floored by seeing all this.
Lazar: Oh I was ! That’s why I’m kind of laughing about it now because it must sound ridiculous to everyone. But it’s just phenomenal. I mean this is really alien technology.
Knapp: About the 115: We talked a little bit about it in the series of reports. Explain what it is again and why you believe it could not be manufactured here.
Lazar: Okay, it’s a super-heavy element: On the periodic chart, which lists all the elements found on earth and that can be synthesized, I think the highest element we’ve synthesized has been about Element 106. Now from 103 — or actually, anything higher than plutonium up — the half-life begins to drop; in other words, the element disintegrates. When you get up to Element 106, it’s only around for a very small amount of time. Even science today theorizes that up around Element 113 to 116 — somewhere in there — they should again become stable. This is in fact true. That’s what Element 115 is; it’s a stable element.To synthesize it would be impossible. The way we synthesize heavy elements is, we take a stable element like bismuth or something like that, or plutonium, whatever, put it in an accelerator, and BOMBARD it with protons. Essentially what you’re trying to do is plug in protons into the atoms and increase the atomic number. To do that to the level of Element 115 would just take an infinite amount of power and an infinite amount of time.
Knapp: What kinds of things, what capabilities would a heavy element like this have — I mean other than producing power ? Obviously, it can produce a LOT of power, right ?
Lazar: It in itself is not anti-matter. It just has a unique property of producing it. Any of the other basic properties it has I really don’t know of. But using just the anti-matter-producing property, the potential for a weapon is staggering ! It’s absolutely staggering !
Knapp:Like what ? A pound of it: what could it do ?
Lazar: Well, 2.2 pounds is the energy equivalent of 47 10-megaton hydrogen bombs. I mean, it’s a good bang ! And a pound of a super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like that.
Knapp: I guess what I’ve heard most from people who just don’t buy the whole story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called S-4, and maybe it is a secret area, but what you were shown is stuff that we’ve made. That we made this 115 — if it is 115 — that we made the flying disks, that we made these anti-matter reactors, because these are advances that you just don’t know about.
Lazar: Hardly. [laughs.]
Knapp: Why not ?
Lazar: Well, the 115, it’s impossible. And the FACT that the main job of everyone there is to find out how everything’s made; I mean that just contradicts everything right off the bat. The materials are completely alien to us, and just the overall idea of the project is: Hey, can we duplicate this with materials that we have here ? So obviously, it was something that was found or given, for that matter, and we’re just trying to duplicate it.
Knapp: The 115: Where do you suppose it came from then ? I mean, what kind of environment would that kind of element come from ?
Lazar: The only place that 115 could be made would have to be in a natural situation, somewhere maybe on the fringes of a supernova or somewhere around maybe a binary star system, where there was more mass in the primordial mix of that system, where heavier elements would have had a chance to form, when the stars were collapsing and there were huge amounts of energy being released. It’s something along these lines; it has to be a naturally-occurring element.
Knapp: You saw an anti-matter reactor. You saw gravity-propulsion systems in flying disks, flying saucers. You saw this Element 115. You also read a series of reports that had other stunning information. Can you give an overview of the kind of things that were in these reports ?
Lazar: The reason I didn’t do that before was, first of all they were just reports. Everything else I had hands-on experience with. Now there was LOTS of strange information in the reports, but there again it’s just printed material and it could be disinformation. I don’t know. But certainly, the information I did read in the reports about 115, the disks, the grav — I mean, that all had material that related to that. The reports went into aliens and even went along the lines of religious —
Knapp: Well, we can let our audience know. I mean we discussed this, when we were putting this series of reports together, whether to get into the alien thing or not, and we decided not to for the time being. It’s not like you’re hiding something from the audience or whatever, it was just a decision we made. But you did see reports — whether they’re true or not — Government reports about aliens.
Knapp: What were the reports ?
Lazar: There were photographs of aliens. There were autopsy reports. There was really a wealth of information.
Knapp: What did they look like ?
Lazar: The typical “grey.” I hate to say that, like anyone knows what a typical grey is. It’s a creature, probably three and a half to four feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes, long arms, very thin-looking. I don’t know how else I would describe them.
Knapp: What does an autopsy report look like ? What’s included in an autopsy report that you said you read ?
Lazar: The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw the carcass — it was obviously a dead alien — carcass cut up and it was all dark inside like it had an iron base. The reason I say iron is because it was very dark blood or whatever. I’m not a doctor, but it seemed to be one large organ in the body as opposed to identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing, but just one gooey mess in it.
Knapp: What did the report say ? It had pictures; it had to have some words: “Here’s Exhibit A, an alien” ?
Lazar: Essentially so ! They had weights and densities of the organs, said there were no conclusions drawn, but it was just a basic description of what the person who was cutting open the body saw.
Knapp: Say where they came from ?
Lazar: Yeah, in one of the reports it said they came from Reticulum 4, was what it said.
Knapp: Where is that ? Any idea ?
Lazar: [laughs] Well, I’m told it’s a star system in Zeta Reticuli. Reticulum is the constellation. And by “Reticulum 4,” they meant the fourth planet out from that sun. In the same reports, we were identified — instead of saying Earth, we were identified as “Sol 3,” meaning the third planet out from our sun.
Knapp: Now you’ve read a lot of UFO material. Do you find yourself mixing what you’ve read and what you’ve learned from up there ?
Lazar: No, that’s why I stay away from the UFO researchers and things like that. I really don’t want to be associated with that. I don’t research the stuff. It’s interesting to read, but no, I’m not mixing anything that I’ve read into this stuff.
Knapp: We were just talking about the UFO field in general, and you feel a little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE right now.
Lazar: Unfortunately, yeah.
Knapp: Why the reluctance ?
Lazar: I don’t know. There are so MANY stories circulating around. Everyone has their own view. Each UFO researcher says they have the right story. And essentially, I don’t want to side with anyone because I don’t know where that information’s come from, though they do all have the basic story: you know, there ARE alien crafts here; how they got here is, probably aliens brought them here, unless we really have a neat setup with the UPS. There’s just so many different factions of them [UFO researchers], and they all kind of war between each other; I really don’t want to get associated with them.
Knapp: Before you got into the program at S-4, though, you had an interest in UFOs. It must be hard for people to swallow that here’s a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the program.
Lazar: Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to several places, and I wanted to get back into the scientific field again. Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear and read some of his material. And initially, I thought he was just absolutely crazy. But apparently, he did have a good source of information because, as it turns out, some of the information that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.
Knapp: But your regard for UFOs in general: As a scientist, did you think there was something to it ?
Lazar: Absolutely not.
Knapp: Absolutely nothing ?
Lazar: No. I would have stood on that ’til the day I died.
Knapp: Many of the people who have been calling are UFO groups or UFO researchers who have demanded that you talk to them: We’ve got to talk to this guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity so he stays alive; we want him to give us information so that we can further check out his background, etc.; we want to protect him; we want to help him.You’ve resisted. You’ve done this program; you’ve done a couple of reports with us; and you’ve done a radio show or two; in general, you’ve resisted going into the UFO circuit. Why is that ?
Lazar: Just like I mentioned before: I just don’t want to be associated with those guys. And how many people are you going to open up your background to and let them run rampant through it ? I mean, private detectives, every UFO group in the world wants to do that! The idea was for me to release the information, essentially to protect myself and take some of the heat off. And I’ve done that. And that’s all that needs to be done, really.
Knapp: Certain UFO researchers claim they’ve been getting information from you all along; you’ve been leaking stuff to them; and that they’ve read these reports that verify the information. You’ve been working with UFO groups while you were in the program at S-4 ?Lazar: Not UFO groups. I did mention a couple of things to some people. That’s all I’m gonna say.
Knapp: Okay. In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made to the Government ?
Knapp: And why did you feel that was necessary ? I mean, you took an oath, didn’t you ?
Lazar: Yeah. But look at the magnitude of what was going on. I believe that some of the technology — maybe all of the technology — should be kept secret, until we have a handle on everything. But certainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a secret from anyone — not just the American people, but the rest of the world.Let out the basic fact that we have these craft, at one time aliens did at least visit and drop off something, however they got here, that there was some contact made, and then cut it short. You don’t need to release the information on the gravity generators, the weapon potential — which is enormous — and so on.
Knapp: What could you do with that technology ? Say you took the flying disks, the anti-matter reactors, the gravity generators, gave it to Los Alamos or Livermore, let them examine the potential abilities of this stuff. I mean, how would this affect life on earth if this stuff was widely available ?
Lazar: And mass-producable ?
Lazar: That’s tough to say. I mean, you have a completely different mode of travel. What happens when you can play with time ? That gets into a really deep philosophical question there.
Knapp: But I mean, it would change a lot of stuff, change everything.
Lazar: Oh yeah ! It would change absolutely everything !
Knapp: Do you think it will ever come out ?
Lazar: Personally, no.
Knapp: What do you hope happens, both with yourself and with this information ?
Lazar: There’s been enough thorns put in their toes to where they do try and release something.
Knapp: We’ll have to have you come back, Bob. Thanks for joining us.